Feminism on the rise?
  • What is with the sudden surge in feminism?  I'm honestly curious to where this came from. 
  • Guess it's a touchy subject lately...
  • probably the fact women are second class citizens in the world. feminism has always been there....
  • It is not feminism, feminism is about equality in everything, current feminist are all about changing the patriarch rule to the Matriarch rule.  
  • Modern day feminism is confusing to me. I thought that feminism meant that women should be equal to men in terms of rights and how women are treated, but the way feminists go about it - well, loud ones anyway - that is not the impression that I get. There are a lot of feminists who do actually want equality between men and women, and the spotlight should be put on them more.
  • I honestly don't see a push for women to dominate things, unless it's unspoken and insidious and I'm just being naive.  Needless to say, I doubt that's the case, but then I do tend to assume everyone's motivations are decent for the most part.

    I think the reason things are getting so thrust into the spotlight at the minute is that all the forms of social media and the ease of publishing material onto blogs and YouTube etc means that people who feel strongly about any topic can get those opinions out there and available to a wide audience.  Things can then spread from there very quickly, which can make the person who came out with those opinions the target for people who hold very strong opposing positions.  They get very angry and say angry things, people on the opposing side do the same and before long all possibility of nuanced conversation disappears.

    Why has women + video games become such a hot topic of late?  I honestly couldn't say, clearly there are people who feel they are not well represented by the medium because of their gender and I guess I can't argue as I don't experience the world from their perspective.  How that then translates into death/rape threats, people's personal details being published online, strangers turning up at people's houses saying they're 'from the internet'...I dunno, but it's suggestive of a wholly different problem (and one I know doesn't only apply to video games, given the hassle women sports journalists or other public figures receive) to the one where the gender demographics of game devs and game journalists might not represent the gender demographics of gamers as a whole.
    Noobied by 1shozaya
  • Jeeze, there's nothing about modern feminism that wants men domineered over. If you guys read up and looked into modern third-wave feminism, you'd see the main tenants are basically inclusion for all with a focus on women, people of color, and LGBT rights, and a rejection of society-defined gender norms. None of the 'gaming feminists' like Sarkeesian or Hernandez want men erased from gaming or anything.

    I'm assuming the OP is speaking to the recent developments of feminism in gaming and gaming media, and honestly, it shouldn't be too surprising. Fifteen years ago, women made up about 10% of the gaming market. Now they make up half, and middle-aged women have passed teen boys as the largest single demographic subset. We all know of the poor representation of women in games, the game industry, and media, and the entire tech/gaming industry, much like other mass media, has a very "old boys club" feel to it. This is a natural push back against a medium and community that shows a lot of hostility towards women still.

  • I think @Littleg hit the nail right on the head, but @GoodEnoughForMe also makes really good points. 

    I was just surprised at how much feminism is popping up more and more lately after the Zoe Quinn thing started.  Even people outside the gaming industry are hopping in for comment, like Joss Whedon.  I think women should have equal rights to men and deserve the same respect that we do, but a lot of feminist are going a little overboard with this.  Like Dracula only drinking women's blood in Castlevania?  Honestly, the developers were just using historical knowledge, it's not like they have some vendetta against women.  Just other simple things that don't even need to be touched on are getting called out now for no reason.

    I know this has always been a part of gaming, such as in Resident Evil 5 when you're killing black people... IN AFRICA. What the fuck are they supposed to be killing... Eskimos?  It really doesn't help that all these people are white knighting every single thing, ESPECIALLY with feminism.  I understand defending someone who is being harassed on social media or who has their information put out to the public, but these people seem to do it just for the fuck of it. 

    Thanks for replying guys, I really do appreciate you helping to inform me. 
  • Oh, and welcome to the forums @poops68 .  Glad to have you!
  • So, here's my take on it for what it's worth. I have some insights to offer on feminism and women's rights completely independent of the gaming world.

    For those of you who don't know: I work in mining as an electrical apprentice. I'm a woman and I experience sexist attitudes every day at work, and every day in the macho northern community where I live surrounded by attitudes of 20/30 years ago. I honestly think my time on the internet galvanized me to a lot of it except the most brutal.

    It is my opinion that the feminist attitudes you see today are reactions of people who are rightfully calling out assholes trying to make people's lives miserable for not conforming to their ideals of feminine societal norms (i.e. Ms. Quinn and her supporters calling out the people attacking her).

    I'm married, in my 30s, I don't have kids. I'm not decided if I want kids. Most of the women up here my age have kids. I get judged by a lot of people as some strange person because I have the gall to choose not be a baby machine.

    I have short hair. This is a purely practical choice I made based on the fact that I wear a hardhat to work every day. Yet still, characterized as a 'boy's' hairdo, I get frequently called a man. Conversely, men with long hair in my town are frequently derided as weak or womanly.

    I kept my maiden name and go by Ms. because it's important to me to make my own name in the world. I work because it's important to me to be financially independent. IMO, this is no one else's business, but I still get heads of housewives shaking at me for not having a perfect house, because heaven forbid I go to work every day.

    I am strong and tall. Because of this, being a girl, it's not seen as strength or beauty. I am viewed as intimidating and bossy. All my life, other people picked fights with me because of this imagined threat. I've heard this story from many tall women I've met over the years. And some men, too.

    Despite this, friends have told me in the past that I'm probably one of the nicest people you're liable to meet.

    Many of the guys I have worked with in the past in electrical departments have been
    1) Sole Breadwinners
    2) Rednecks

    When I'm having a rough day at work (as everyone does) the immediate response from those men is 'Go back to the kitchen.'

    I personally take that as a challenge to do better.

    I also know not all men are like this, that most men are respectable humans that genuinely want to see everyone happy and well and peaceful. I keep this in mind when I talk about my colleagues, because I want you to know that many of them have been very supportive of my choice to enter the trades and encourage me every day to try hard and do well. Some of these men are feminists in their actions, because they are blind to sex/creed/race/gender/orientation. They don't care who you are so long as you do good work, support your coworkers, and are a decent human being.

    Similarly, I'm lucky to have a husband that is for the most part a great guy and encouraged me every step. Every couple has fight and disagreements, and there was a time I wasn't sure we were going to make it through ours, but we did and I'm grateful for him in my life.

    My dad always was a support. He showed me his love of tabletop strategy and raised me with the appreciation of gaming, sci-fi, and geeky things. He shared these things with my mom and I because he loves us.

    Feminism didn't just show up. Feminism is a constant battle for true equality for all people of all genders and races and sexual orientations.

    Women don't want to rule the world, we want to be able to share it with equal partners in love and joy. I like to think most reasonable men want this as well.

    Women don't want to oppress men for the way they've treated us, we want to be able to participate in the world and not brushed aside or victimized because we don't possess penises. Or majority skin colour. Or like the opposite sex. Or feel out of place in the skin given to us.

    IMO, It all comes down to this: I am happy with myself and I want to do what I want to do. Why does this backwards society not want to let me? What is so horrible about breaking expected societal rules and norms in a way that hurts no one and contributes to society? Why must I be so violently punished for trying to change the world?

    I know why. People don't like change. That's why. People are resistant to things not being the way they expect.

    So, the battle for equality for all moves forward, in various media, trying hard to gain ground. Social media makes mountains out of molehills quickly, and campaigns of character assassination like the ones we saw against Fish and Quinn are virally and widely publicized. We, who have no business discussing their personal issues, suddenly find ourselves in these discussion rooms and threads, adding to a conversation taking place around the world.

    Frankly, I'm glad the discussion never went away. I'm glad it's come back with a vengeance. The only way we're ever going to get past violence, punishment, and get back to being decent humans to eachother is to talk about all the ugly and all the good right out in the open.
  • Resident Evil 5 wasn't criticized because of killing black zombies in Africa, it was criticized for its portrayal of black people in Africa.
  • As someone who has spent several years in Africa, and who's father is an immigrant from Nigeria, It's accurate. Yes there are extremely civilized parts ans gorgeous natural scenery, but it is extremely unsafe and raw. The truth hurts, but if they're telling the truth what can you do? Everyone is extremely poor and desperate in most parts of the country. And all these volunteers and missionary services are only digging our hole deeper. They come and do all the jobs for virtually free.

    We cant even create some sort of infrastructure. And omg don't get me started on how fucked the Ivory Coast is right now. + Ebola is making everyone lose their Damn mind. Resident Evil Africans are looking quite nice compared to the real thing.
  • Srry for grammar, on my phone.

    Also, I really like your approach to feminism @tallchick
  • That was a fascinating read @tallchick ! And welcome back to the forum! :)
  • I'm not really into this whole "feminism" thing that has to do with tropes and videogames, whether it be the writers, programmers, artists, etc. I just want to enjoy games that I pay a lot of money for and appreciate all the hard work the developers put into them. When it comes to real people, who are feminists that never listen to opinions or feedback from others, and are always one-sided all the time, I do not agree with them.

    I believe that everyone should treat each other with respect, but that's not always possible. There are going to be peaks and boundaries with this whole equality thing and the world isn't a perfect place.

    Here's my take on it: There are going to be imbalances due to the way our society has evolved over decades and millenniums, and we can try to make people aware of this by spreading the word, but as we evolve I think could be next to impossible to look at some things a different way due to the influence of family, friends, and what you're taught but that's what I believe.

    I recently saw that Anita Sarkeesian was forced out of her home due to death threats and disturbing comments on her Twitter feed. All I think she wants to do for her agenda is to make people aware that women are being objectified in videogames. While some of us will not 100% agree with everything that she stands on, at least some people understand what she is trying to convey in her videos.

    Those who make death threats are more associated on a personal matter than what the thoughts those people have. Some find her annoying, some find her arguments to be less credible, some find her to contradict herself, and some just want her off the face of the planet. Misogyny still exists to this day, but it all depends on where you grow up, what you are taught, who you meet, and other influences as well.

    At first I didn't understand this whole "feminism frequency" to begin with. When I saw her videos I could understand what message she was trying to get across, but after watching it for so long I have come to the conclusion that this kind of material is not for me to discuss in depth.

    In conclusion, I do not discriminate people by their age, race, religion, etc, and I want everyone to be created equally despite the fact that it may not always be that way. I don't make a big deal if videogames use women as "objects of desire" because I really don't care, but I do care for the safety of everyone living in this world today. I do believe equality between men and women should exist, but the world isn't like that and people just have to get used to it.

    I'm going to bed now and will dream of anything that I want to because dreams are not part of reality and they do not alter our world in any way.
  • Dreams alter our reality every day, except that in the creative process they are called 'ideas'.

    People agree on ideas, they become popular, and the worldview shifts. This happens all the time.

    Two hundred years ago, none of the civil liberties we enjoy today existed. Even white males were not all free then; some lived as little better than slaves to lordlings in the kingdoms of Europe. My own great-grandparents were serfs.

    Look at how far we've come since the end of the Napoleonic Era, at what has happened in America alone in the last 200 years alone!

    I think all of us have come a long way and there's no reason we can't progress further. You're right, not everything is perfect. But (imo) to hell with not at least TRYING to get better.

    The challenge I put to myself is: How to recognize and celebrate our ethnic, cultural, biological, etc., differences in a more positive way, without it becoming disdainful, hateful, or 'us versus them'?

    The world can change. The world does change. The world is change. Life is change :D

    Noobied by 1shozaya
  • @tallchick I think you hit the nail on the head.  

    The challenge I put to myself is: How to recognize and celebrate our ethnic, cultural, biological, etc., differences in a more positive way, without it becoming disdainful, hateful, or 'us versus them'?

    The recent social justice trends on gaming "journalism" sites feels like they are perpetuating the "us vs. them" mentality against gamers in general.  There's a lot of outcry on perceived injustices that have been happening with greater frequency as of late, and the most worrying aspect is that any criticism to this line of thought brings an instant backlash with blacklistings (if you're a dev), calls of misogyny, or worse.  It's an awful lot of stick and no carrot.

    As a culture, I think that we've come a long way towards acceptance and tolerance, especially in the past few years with regards to sexual orientation.  This has taken years to develop, but a lot of positive progress was made with positive role models in movies/TV, celebrated creators, etc.

    I wish we had more of that in gaming these days.  We need more stories of female game developers out there.  Who can get to the level of where Robert Williams (Kings Quest, etc), Jane Jensen (Gabriel Knight), etc. got back in their prime when they were interviewed constantly?  I find it kind of sad that I can only think of Kim Swift (Portal) and Amy Henning (Uncharted) off the top of my head as a recent "name" developers.  Either way, I'd rather see the press talking with real female developers making awesome games instead of reporting on the folks you see today..

    Yw

  • yeah Peace love and understanding!

    But as you can see from the uproar on the internet you could see the real nature of people, sexist who could see nothing wrong with sexualised women in games, the white knights, the trolls, women that would stand op for their rights, militant feminists that don't want equality but a reversal of roles and so on.

    I am off the opinion that Sarkeesian is not a real feminist and only does this for the money, her videos are full of cherry picking and often ignores the mechanics of the games (hitman), off course there is no illussion that a game like the last Duke nuke 'm is sexist because Duke is an over the top parody of a macho sexist male (who throws poop :P) . 

    This whole debacle just shows that we have a long way to go as a species
    Noobied by 1shozaya

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