Zoe Quinn as told by Internet Aristocrat; thoughts?
  • Watch and comment if you feel like it.

    Noobied by 1shozaya
  • This is great.  Still can't believe they got banned from Twitter over that garbage. 
  • I'm about 7 minutes in and I think I've had all I can stand. Christ, what a colossal cunt, his whole argument stems from the fact that he's proven that she was lying about the Wizardchan abuse, when his colossal imgur post does anything but - just strings together a load of suppositions and nit-picking over the exact definition of words like 'abuse' or 'threats'.  That he also refutes the existence of sexism or other forms of discrimination in the gaming community in the first few seconds of the video, when my first fully-online experiences of Xbox live 6 years ago were a litany of 'nigger this' and 'faggot that' is nonsensical.

    To then try and string all this together into some colossal narrative of a journalistic failing of the 5th estate is bollocks and suggestive of someone who sports a fine line in tin foil headware when he's sitting in his basement.  Did Zoe Quinn fuck her way to success?  Or did she instead make the kind of mistakes in a relationship that countless people make all around the world every day?  I dunno and nor do I care, but to drag out a shitty, over-personal post from a mental ex into some grand conspiracy theory is just plain nuts.

    Do I sometimes find myself rolling my eyes a bit at some of the Social Justice issues that people get tremendously worked up about on the internet?  Yes, but at the end of the day, I see a lot of (generally) young, well-intentioned people who genuinely want to make the world a fairer, nicer place and that can't really be all that much of a bad thing, can it?
    Noobied by 1Hazelnut
  • Fuck all that sexist shit.  If what he said about the contest was true, she is in fact a cunt.  Calling a charitable gaming development contest sexist to women is the dumbest shit I've ever heard.  There is no excuse for that what so ever.  The winner was promised 8% in royalties, but I guess that wasn't enough for that her, and she felt it was sexist in someway. 

    Yes, the way he presented his information and opinion was not the best way to do it, but he did make excellent points.  All of these things can't just be mere coincidences, and even if they are that still leaves the issue of professional integrity.  Hiring journalist that have ties to people in the industry and endorse shitty games, or shit that doesn't have to do with gaming at all?  If you take nothing else from the video, at least take away the fact that Video Game Journalism is not professional anymore, and doesn't have any integrity. 

    Edit.)  I know video game journalist will have ties to people in the industry lol.  But if it has an affect on their writing or reporting, it is no longer professional and is biased most of the time.  I can understand companies paying people to endorse their game, but even that is garbage.

    Noobied by 1Dr Flibble
  • Egg, bring your feminist white knight dial back down from 11 and watch the thing. He never at any point says sexism or racism doesn't exist in gaming, and if you watched to the end you'd see why he brings those topics up, to point out the glaring double standard. If you're just going to watch a fraction and lose your shit well then you are probably ready for a job in the mainstream media.

    Shozaya, you get it man.
  • White knight? Be fair, I'm not defending anything she may or may not have done, I'm saying that the evidence put forward didn't support the major point of the first third of the video. And he may well make some fantastic points, but I'm too busy to sit through that much bullshit to pick out a few choice nuggets of brilliance. He can't get to his point or get across a single cogent thought 8 minutes of the way into his 24 minute video? Not my fault.

    If he makes a point about the murky and poorly-defined nature of general video game journalism, he's hardly the first to do that, is he? I'm afraid all I heard was a character assassination by a guy who does (regardless of what you say) try to downplay the level of misogyny on the internet.

    Look, you knew precisely the reaction you were going to get by posting that up 'without comment' like you did. You know everyone on here well enough to probably even be able to predict that I'd be amongst the first to bite, being the (admittedly) softy liberal that I am. I can't be arsed playing Columbo Of The Internet to find out if one woman did or didn't do some questionable things, what I will say is that you only have to click on a single post that Zoe or a dozen other women game designers might put on Twitter and read some of the responses they get to know that there are some hateful, toxic individuals out there who will says some pretty disgusting things to them behind the veil of internet anonymity.
  • There are multiple facets to this that I think illustrate this entire situation is made up of guilty parties.

    So, the video. This video is sort of all over the place in terms of what topics it wants to discuss, but first:

    1. "Social Justice" in gaming journalism

    Yeah, so, I hear people complain about this all the time, and it's kind of funny to me! This kind of discussion; of diversity, sex, gender, etc., has been occurring about movies, novels, music, and artwork for centuries! There are university classes about it! So it's a good thing to see it with regards to games. This is an important critical discussion that needs to happen! As a side note, it's funny that people want video games to be treated as art, but so many want to shut down this kind of discussion. It's a good thing to talk about this kind of stuff. Game development is a "boys' club" and has issues of sexism and racism that need to be worked out. This is undeniable. There is a big issue of barriers and sexism and the like in the industry. So him complaining about it, well, grow up. There's still reviews, analysis, guides, all the 'traditional' stuff he wants. It didn't go away. 

    2. Journalism is all broken!

    Ok, this is a pet peeve of mine, and a small one, but journalism didn't "die." It was always, well, dead by his standards and what I suspect are many. The Spanish-American War in the late 1800s came about ENTIRELY because of newspaper lead propaganda that convinced a war-weary public and president that:

    A) Cuba sunk the USS Maine (no evidence of it whatsoever)

    B) America needed another war.

    Journalism basically started a war, rad!

    Now, onto the whole sex with gaming people. First off, if what Zoe did was true - had sex with 5 people behind her boyfriend's back - this is a very, very bad thing. I don't think anyone denies that. That's both heartbreaking, and, with regards to STDs, horrible to put her boyfriend through. She was, again, if this is true, emotionally manipulative and incredibly dishonest. If true, you'd understand why her ex boyfriend would want to see her life burnt to the ground. I think most people understand that. Maybe it's a shame that it all went public, but again, I think we can all understand why her ex would be mad.

    Now, I DO feel that part of this pitchfork assault is because Zoe is a woman. She has received death threats and all kinds of nasty stuff. Here's the thing; her having sex with a games journalist is hardly the worst thing in gaming journalism. All of gaming journalism (well, most of it) breaks a fundamental journalism ethical rule; no gifts. This is one of the first things you will learn in high school journalism. Writing about someone and they offer you a bottle of water? You have to deny. Even if it's just one bottle. It's a gift. No exceptions. Ethics 101. Gaming journalism is BUILT upon these types of gifts. Reviews rely on review copies that publishers can threaten to (and do so) take away if they get bad scores. Gaming magazines and websites are funded by advertising revenue from publishers. Reviewers are flown out to hotels to review games sometimes! I'd love to see the MASSIVE ANGER towards Zoe instead put towards this. Zoe allegedly having sex with a games journalist is a conflict of interest, sure, but it's hardly the worst, the death, or the biggest ethical quandary in gaming journalism. Why is she the linchpin here then? Every single major site that reviews games violates conflict of interest rules in the most fundamental way; gifts and money. 

    Basically; Zoe very possibly did a very bad thing. Coverage of sexism, racism, diversity, is an important dialogue that all art forms have and gaming needs to have. People who complain about it usually do because they don't experience it, are challenged by the coverage, or are just angry that the world doesn't revolve around them. Gaming "journalism" is fundamentally broken and always has been. This video wasn't very good, and his whining about the social issue discussions on gaming sites is petty at best.

  • I like that you put the word in quotation marks, GEFM, because I tell you what, I am consistently baffled by people's expectations of what game journalism should be.  Perhaps they should look the word up in a dictionary.  What constitutes journalism in the world of video games is actually more review and commentary, just like it is in the world of film, books, cars etc etc, expecting people to act like Woodward and Bernstein in the process of writing about bloody video games is ridiculous. 

    Call it murky, call it whatever, but gaming coverage can't exist without the publishers/developers and vice versa.  One hand shakes the other, and it's down to the consumers to find the sources that they trust or just enjoy enough to be able to put up with the attempted manipulation of the message by the companies that are creating the games.  We keep looking like we'll be moving into an exciting new era with streaming etc that allows the enthusiasts to create their own coverage of games, but it took next to no time whatsoever for the same companies to look to influence that as well.  Just ask fans of the Yogscast.
  • Seems like some pretty pedestrian 90210 crap.  World is full of mean people.  When you get fooled by one, best to just move on.  Hanging out through five cheats and then writing the longest blog ever means you kinda love being a martyr.  We don't choose people out of a hat.  Many doormats are looking to be stepped on.  The internet makes something that would be pure navel gazing into something others can project their own crap on to.  Got issues with women?  I got a story for you!

    Gamers take gaming journalism way to seriously.  Gaming journalism is promotion.  It is Entertainment Tonight.  It is advertising way more than reporting.  In fact, his whole fifth estate thing pretty hoighty toighty. 95% of everything on the internet is garbage.  No peer review, no standards, equals a data set than is mostly crap.  This mean lady manipulates mobs as well as individuals.  The internet is the mob, not some new elite.
  • It also probably says a lot about the gaming community that so many have chosen to scorn Zoe, when it was the journalist and boss themselves that, if the allegations are true, broke their professional conduct requirements. There's also this: https://twitter.com/stephentotilo . He's the head honcho at Kotaku and basically says he trusts Grayson in his claims that he was not in a relationship at the time of the article. Who knows. 
  • Yeah Egg, guess it was too much to ask of a liberal to hear a guy out before going full retard. My clairvoyant 3rd eye and extra sensitive left nipple failed to predict your reaction, even though it appears they should have been able to according to you.

    Awesome insight into a psycho midget's mind though. You don't listen, then go fucking bananas, then blame someone else for your reaction. Brilliant stuff dude! You don't have the Columbo skills to Google the back story of this chick but you do have the Columbo skills to background check the video creator. A little odd don't you think? For a guy who talks about what a nice world it would be if people tried to better themselves you'd think being able to hear a man out wouldn't be too much to ask for a start. And if you can't at least find the human courtesy to do that, to just hold your tongue and don't post anything. And if you are still going to post regardless, at least have the stones to own your own fucking actions.
  • Retard? Psycho midget? Wind your neck in, Flib, there's no need for all of us to have a sense of humour failure over this. If the thing I said about being able to predict people's responses came across as dickish, I apologise, I didn't mean it to.

    To address a couple of your points, though; I didn't background check this guy at all, I actually did do him the service of checking the thing he was saying backed up his initial argument and found it flawed. Beyond that, I stand by my point that the video is poorly-focused and difficult to watch. I'll give it another go if you really think I should, if this conversion is deemed worth continuing.

    Blaming someone else for my reaction? What does that even mean? This guy has started out what may be a video with serious points to make with a hatchet-job on a person's character based on something her ex said, getting himself tremendously worked up about possible manipulation of video game sales of all things... and what? He's some crusader for Truth, while I'm 'blaming him for my reactions'?

    Finally, 'stones to own my actions'? I've explained myself clearly enough. We disagree, that's all, don't go attacking my character.
    Noobied by 2Winsord Veri7as
  • I wasn't going to join in with this because I don't really care whether quinn is a cunt or not but flib you are backing a guy who ha very little evidence of the accusations he is making. Then when G tries to put forward an argument to the contrary jump down his throat making personal attacks and acting kinda childish.

    If you posted the thread so a healthy debate could arise you ruined it all with your comments.
    Noobied by 1Veri7as
  • <My clairvoyant 3rd eye and extra sensitive left nipple

    >My Life


    >all wrong doing has been undone by all parties involved because of the sentence above.
  • I see Dr Flibble hasn't changed. Nice civilized discussion you're having there. Do you still post here just to attack people that disagree with you? Well, keep up the good work. I'll check in next year to see who you're in it with then. Cheers.
  • Troll and run, classic Veri7as.
    Noobied by 2shozaya Veri7as
  • Guys, I meant it when I said there was no need for any part of this conversation to get personal.  Please.  Come on...

  • The very end of his video is overkill. 
  • Good to see the place hasn't changed in the last couple years. Cheers folks :) feels good to be back.
  • @tallchick

    Where you been?! 

    What's yo T?! 

    and other things that I enjoy saying!

    As for the topic at hand, assholes on both sides and it's all a huge mess - the kind I enjoy sashaying around in order to use my time more effectively rather than cartwheel through the shitpile and contribute to it.
  • This whole thing has turned into a ridiculous character assassination attempt, and I feel sorry for Zoe and all her friends who were dragged into this. I don't think it's particularly shocking that a lot of gamers are petty assholes; having used to browse 4chan in my college days, and having played a ton of MMOs, I've seen it first hand. But gaming right now is making headlines entirely because of death threats, doxxing, abuse, and rampant misogyny, which isn't something I really want representing a medium I've spent my entire life with.



  • Played her "game"... What the fuck.
  • I keep seeing 'doxxing', what is that?
  • Pretty sure when they put your info out. Not %100 certain though.
  • Yeah to doxx someone is to basically post their info; real name, address, birthdate, and sometimes more personal stuff.

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