• The 'chauvinist asshat' thread has gone into discussions of feminism and made me think of early militant feminist activists who were martyrs to the cause (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emily_Davison) even if accidentally. Made me thankful for the women who, because of the ignorance of their opponents, felt the need to take extreme measures to change the world for the better. Without them, I'd have no right to vote, be considered a person, a human, or be able to express myself as an individual. It is, however, sad to me that feminazis today have warped this into twisted reason for manhating and being very militant still when such militancy is no longer needed, necessarily. (IMO)

    It got me thinking about other sacrifices that change the world. So let's talk about it.
    These are just some example talking points. no need to rail on all of them. Pick one.

    - What is Sacrifice to you?
    - Is sacrifice ever noble?
    - We can talk about religious martyrs. It is Easter after all. Maybe you wish to decry the terrorists that martyr themselves for a cause.
    - Maybe you just want to talk about a sacrifice you made or a relative made, so that you could live better, or so that you could do something you wanted to in life.
    - Are you proud of the sacrifice you made to achieve your goal, or do you regret it?
    - Are you proud of the sacrifices that your loved one made?
    - Did you ever fast or give up food (or anything else) for a time to make a political point or for religious reasons?
    - Is sacrifice (hunger strike, suicide, 'martyrdom') effective as a means of political bargaining?
    - Is sacrifice ever beneficial? Or is it merely the most extreme form of compromise?

    Do your worst.
  • you'd have to sit in the back of the bus too...

    on topic: nah I don't quite believe sacrifice is a necessity, it's just probably the easiest method of getting your way. I sacrificed brunch to write this reply. If you believe sacrifice is honorable you must believe war is honorable as well.
  • Well, I did say do your worst, but I'm disappointed. This is weak even for you, man. Bring it. I ain't scared of what you actually think.
  • like I said I was skipping out on FOOD!! FOOD!!!

    Anyway I've gotta pull a Grey on this one. Martyrdom, sacrifice is simply, in the end, dishonorable IMO. There's always a better way, the only reason for actual drama queen SACRIFICE is because it's louder and stronger than something like peaceful protest.

    That's large scale sacrifice, but I feel the same way on the smaller scale for instance sacrificing a fun game like ME4 cuz Bioware f*ed up the ME3 ending is just asinine (IMO). All your doing is depraving yourself of a good game. If you have a complaint keep it in context I consider taking it out on ME4 turning it into a grudge, dust yourself off and get back on the horse again. I've been a baseball fan about as long as I'd been a videogame fan and it's just stupid how ppl take their anger out on the whole game just because a handful of ppl took steroids.

    Another (more relevant) example, say Rosa Parks or your girl didn't sacrifice their image for what they thought of as right. You may not experience the same freedom you do today right? But is that a fact? Obviously not. Sacrifice is an old idea and, IMO, one that the danger outweighs the possible gain. Blacks got into baseball NOT by sacrifice but because of one enterprising individual that decided to take a chance on a VERY skilled black player. Ingenuity is real, sacrifice is just dumb. IMHO sooner or later some nice man would come along and give women a foothold where they can use their OWN ingenuity to fight for their own ideas without the risk of death and destruction. (Obviously a risk that came crashing down on Emily Davison :()
  • Sacrifice is a necessity in my opinion. Every day of your life should be a struggle to make things better than they were yesterday. How much you sacrifice should be based on how badly you want it. Some people are happy to give their lives away one day at a time, while others recognize the need for drastic measures when the time comes. This whole topic reminds me of the story of Carlo Urbani, one of the first people to recognize the potential hazards of SARS.

    Urbani had an argument with his wife, Giuliani Chiorrini, who said it wasn't responsible for the father of three children ages 4 to 17 to risk his life treating such sick patients.

    Urbani replied, "If I can't work in such situations, what am I here for? Answering e-mails, going to cocktail parties and pushing paper?"
    Is this man stupid? Should he have stepped aside and let somebody deal else deal with it? How many other children would have lost their parents before another person stepped up to the plate? 10? 100? 1000? How many people need to die before you come to terms with the idea that you are worth no more than they are?

    I feel like our generation is far too entitled and complacent for our own good. There's this idea going around that you can change the world by liking a facebook page. It fucking disgusts me. Sometimes you have to put your back into it. Sometimes phoning your senator and telling them you are tired of slaughtering civilians across seas isn't enough. I really don't want to get political on this but what do you expect these people to do? We've been killing millions of them for decades and their response should be to stand around in a circle singing Kumbaya? Peaceful protests don't work against tanks and GAU-8's. Try some role reversal and ask yourself how personal things would have to get before you picked up an AK-47 to defend your family. How many blocks away do the explosions need to be?

    My father's entire self imposed role in life was to make enough money to provide me with a decent eduction so that I would not have to work as hard as he did. On his deathbed he apologized for not spending enough time with me. If that's not sacrifice I don't know what is.

    "Man cannot remake himself without suffering, for he is both the marble and the sculptor."
  • The first thing I thought of when reading this thread is that iconic picture of a monk who had set himself on fire in protest. Sadly I don't remember what his cause was, but god damn he clearly felt extremely strongly about it. Personally I can't really find the words to define what Sacrifice means to me, I understand the idea, but not how to put it into words. Too many people see Sacrifice as a fancy word for Choice, but I feel the word carries a much heavier tone to it. Choices are decisions you make with short term effects, Sacrifices are decisions you make with long term effects. Choice however is always the first step to Regret.
  • Chip said:
    The first thing I thought of when reading this thread is that iconic picture of a monk who had set himself on fire in protest. Sadly I don't remember what his cause was, but god damn he clearly felt extremely strongly about it.


    I know the picture you mean. He was a Vietnamese Buddhist monk protesting the persecution of Buddhists at the hands of the Christians.
  • Dr Flibble said:
    I know the picture you mean. He was a Vietnamese Buddhist monk protesting the persecution of Buddhists at the hands of the Christians.


    That was this man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thich_Quang_Duc
    (don't worry you will not see the photo of him on fire in the link)

    Self-immolation is probably the strongest political sacrificial statements one can make. Traditionally they are Buddhist monks, and in the last couple of years several incidents have been reported with regards to protests against the situation in Tibet.

    I think sacrificial suicide for a cause doesn't help anything necessarily, but it does make a powerful statement that few will forget, and it certainly brings attention to a cause. How often do we act on those causes?

    Like with the fruit seller that started the Arab Spring. Mohamed Bouazizi's act of self-immolation started a movement that is changing the face of the Middle East.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi
  • tetraology said:
    There's this idea going around that you can change the world by liking a facebook page. It fucking disgusts me. Sometimes you have to put your back into it.
    "Man cannot remake himself without suffering, for he is both the marble and the sculptor."


    I agree and I think that too many people forget why we have the lives we do.

    My grandparents were immigrants. They were dirt-fucking-poor when they arrived here in Canada. They worked their asses off every day to give my parents, and by extension me, a better life.

    I'm grateful to them for it every day. I think of the lives they lived and I wonder how they did it sometimes.

    It's because of that that I am ambitious. I want to work hard to make them feel like it wasn't a waste of their time and money and resources raising me.

    Anyway, thank you for sharing that about your dad. It really rang true for me too, in terms of having parents that work hard to provide for future generations.
  • image
    I don't really think anything can be said here. Do some research on this man. He may have been able to do more for the situation of Vietnam alive, but nonetheless, his conviction, and self discipline cannot be questioned. While I don't think his mode of showing his displeasure with his government was the absolute best, I can't help but honor is choices, as his choices hurt no one but himself. Seems to me you'd be hard pressed to find someone to say that what he did was dishonorable.

    EDIT:
    Chip said:
    The first thing I thought of when reading this thread is that iconic picture of a monk who had set himself on fire in protest. Sadly I don't remember what his cause was, but god damn he clearly felt extremely strongly about it. Personally I can't really find the words to define what Sacrifice means to me, I understand the idea, but not how to put it into words. Too many people see Sacrifice as a fancy word for Choice, but I feel the word carries a much heavier tone to it. Choices are decisions you make with short term effects, Sacrifices are decisions you make with long term effects. Choice however is always the first step to Regret.


    God damn it Chip, I need to stop skipping reading the thread before posting. And Flibble Too!!! Fuck man, I need to get off the computer. 6 Hours of studying have left my brain mush, apparently.
  • Gonzo said:
    God damn it Chip, I need to stop skipping reading the thread before posting. And Flibble Too!!! Fuck man, I need to get off the computer. 6 Hours of studying have left my brain mush, apparently.

    Haha, no worries man. It makes a good point that when you ask someone to think of a huge sacrifice like that, that they'll most likely think of what he did. His actions were so powerful they are still remembered vividly today. I mean this is probably my 3rd time seeing that picture on my liftetime, and I even remembered the car in the background that I assume they get the petrol from.
  • tallchick said:

    - What is Sacrifice to you?
    - Is sacrifice ever noble?- Is sacrifice (hunger strike, suicide, 'martyrdom') effective as a means of political bargaining?
    - Is sacrifice ever beneficial? Or is it merely the most extreme form of compromise?


    I have a feeling that this thread is going to get me hate ale so I have held off on it until now.

    The word Sacrifice has several meanings to it but to me sacrifice is when you give up something that is dear to you in exchange for something else that has no personal gain to your self. Sacrifice for food... no thats just silly. Sacrifice getting some of the things that you want so that you can save money for the things that you want more... Thats no where near the meaning of the word for me but I have heard it so many times. I had to sacrifice going to the movies so that I go to Sprint Mountain (casino here in OR). REALLY? To me sacrifice is not going with out food, its not about killing your self and it certainly is not being a martyr. You go with out food you loose the energy ad strength to do the things that are most needed (mostly having your wit's imo) When you die for something that you believe in. If you are not willing to die what you believe in then you should look at your life and make stronger convictions. If you can not be true to your self then there is no way that you can be true to anyone else so no... imo that is not sacrifice.

    Now is it ever noble... I guess it could be at times but most of the time it is a word that is to flipped and is more about selfish actions more than anything. To me a sacrifice would be something along the lines of going to Africa or South America and giving all the support that you can to the people that need it most. It would be something like pulling a person that you have never met out of the way of a car that is about to hit them, and in turn placed them in danger and were possibly of being injured. There is no personal gain from those actions. You are willing to give up something that is dear to you whether it is your time or possible bodily harm for a stranger. So yeah sometimes it can be noble but most of the time no. When you are willing to die for a cause there is a selfish motive there. It can not be noble imho when yu have the word YOU or I in the reason for it. Like I want to change ________.

    Sure it is beneficial when it is for the right reasons but rarely do you (the one that made the sacrifice) get to see the effects that it has on others. When someone sees a true sacrifice it makes them want to do better as well and before you know it... they are doing the real sacrifice and not the fake ones.

    NOW---
    When talking about sacrifice it really is a jaded word. Depending on what side you are on of the sacrifice makes the difference on who and what it really means.

    For instance- you see someone that is being chased down by other people you decide to help them just because that seemed like the best option. You put your self in danger trying to get past the guys with guns. Later on you find out that the guys with guns were bounty hunters and you helped a murder get away. There was a sacrifice made and to the person that got away it was noble to the people that were trying to get him it is as far from noble as you can get.

    wrote this in kinda a rush so if there is something tht is unclear... wait what am I talking about this is NT people will call me out on what ever they find that doesn't make sense to them or call me out.

    EDIT: It is highly recommended that people not ask me if Christ made a sacrifice. I know I will get hate mail then.
  • tetraology said:
    "Man cannot remake himself without suffering, for he is both the marble and the sculptor."


    lol that is... just so very far from what I think I'm not getting into it (plus ya'll probly don't wanna hear my bible thumpin again either so x)). but just so you know why some ppl think that liking a facebook page makes a difference. They have TOTALLY different viewpoints than you lol.

    BTW it's Spirit Mountain Jade not Sprint :P

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