Death-Is War Murder-When Is Killing Alright?
  • Edit: Fucked it up because I rushed. Made it a little better and redid it all.
    On a side note: Just so there is not any confusion: I am not obsessed with death. The only reason for this topic is so that the other one is not derailed and taken away from the original content that I wanted to discuss there. I see that occurring and it has almost done that a few times already. In the other thread war keeps coming up, I am making this topic to discuss it directly and any other type of death/murder that may pop up and not just as a side point in the other one.

    Over the years it has been said that war is not murder and that when a death occurs in war it is honorable. Why is this so? What makes it different than other people that take lives? When it is said that it falls under a different rule what rule are you talking about?

    Is suicide murder? Is assisted suicide murder? What makes this different than war? Is it murder when a police officer shoots someone because they thought that they saw a gun—or how about in self defense. When is taking a life okay in your mind?

    Edit: Gilligan posted while I was redoing this. I am sorry for the confusion. It is my bad. A PM has been sent to him letting him know of this so he may edit his replay as well that is up to him.
  • killing in war is allowed because the gov. Says its ok.
    good luck arresting someone that comits suicide. The question should have been is attenpted suicide the same as attempted murder but I dont see this as being different from our laws. If a crazy person kills someone they go to the loony bin if your found to be crazy after attempting suicide you will also go to the loony bin.
  • I don't believe assisted suicide or suicide should be considered as murder. Murder is technically defined as the "unlawful" act of killing, but there are states in the US that in certain cases allow assisted suicide to be possible. So why is it murder in one state, and not murder in another state?

    I personally believe a person has the freedom to do whatever they want with their lives as long as they are willing to deal with the consequences and aren't harming others.
  • MissScooter said:
    I don't believe assisted suicide or suicide should be considered as murder.


    Well suicide in the UK used to be illegal with it being "self-murder" as the reason behind it. Was more for attempted suicide cause really, there's no point in taking a dead person to court lol. But if there's a law in place for it being illegal, attempted or successful that makes it an unlawful ending of a life and so is murder in itself.

    I'm not sure if there are still places with that law or a simulare one but it does technically make suicide a self-murder, but a murder non-the-less.
  • Assisted suicide I'm all for, as one of my favorite authors has early-onset Alzheimer's and was campaigning strongly for it.
  • vowel said:
    Well suicide in the UK used to be illegal with it being "self-murder" as the reason behind it. Was more for attempted suicide cause really, there's no point in taking a dead person to court lol. But if there's a law in place for it being illegal, attempted or successful that makes it an unlawful ending of a life and so is murder in itself.

    I'm not sure if there are still places with that law or a simulare one but it does technically make suicide a self-murder, but a murder non-the-less.
    I realize in many places it is considered illegal, as it is against the law, I was more trying to say that I don't believe it should be.

    I am for assisted suicide, because I believe if someone is going to suffer through life, they shouldn't be forced to. This is also why I am "for" (not "for" as in I think we should do it) suicide, as I believe if someone is suffering through life, why should they be forced to?
  • The way that I see it is that as long as there is a law set forward saying that it is okay then it is okay. If one form of killing is permitted for a just and valid reason then to me all forms of death that are for a just and valid reason. Now I am not talking about someone going out and shooting up their school saying that it is a just or valid reason. I am talking about people in authority that have been placed there by either votes or some form of government that have more experience in this than the common civilian. So if it is legal to go to war and war its self is not an illeagal actioin then... why would it not be okay for a Judge and Jury to say that a cop that shoots someone because they thought that they saw a gun when there was not one is murder or not. if it was murder should they face the same scrutiny that others would face that are not in their position. I say yes. In this example that I just gave I think it would fall into man slaughter more than murder but the course of action should be the same as a woman that hears something outside hears a window being broken and someone comes in and so she shoots the person and it turns out that it was her husband and he lost his keys. (That might be something that happened or not I don't know its just an hypothetical example) Is that murder? She felt that she was defending her self after all.
  • Suicide and assisted-suicide, the latter if done with consent, don't need to be punishable offenses, and don't even fall under the common law definition of murder. It often makes the potential victim even worse off, and more apt to hide their troubles for fear of legal retribution, if such is possible.

    Most wars aren't really justified, but if you have to use physical harm as a last ditch effort to save yourself and/or those around you it's probably worth allowing exceptions for violence. But taking another's life is something that ideally would be looked at on a more case by case basis, obviously that is impossible right now.
  • I knew someone that was drafted and he was a conscientous objector. He said the way they talked them in to being ok with killing is by seeing where the line is for that person. They would start with. Would you kill someone if they broke into your house, would you kill if they attacked your mother, raped your wife, killed a sibling?
    that is what I expected the edited thread to be. Or what I expected jaded to ask.
    so I will ask, what is the least thing it would take for you to kill someone. gefm kind of answered but I am thinking of something more specific. What if someone had a gun pointed at you, what if they cock it,what if they said they would kill you in 20 seconds. At what point would you feel afraid enough that you could kill someone to protect yourself or others.
  • Killing in war is alright because you are defending what you believe is right. War is an extreme means of determining who is right. It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong. That's why you have war, to sort it out.

    That's how I look at it at least. I see how illogical it may seem but that's because I find war illogical.
  • tbh Gilligan I was waiting for someone to bring that up. Thought of it after oh about the 6th and final edit so I said fuck it I will let someone else do it or bring it up on pg two.
    *also waiting for abortion to come up but I know that is something that could make it get heated so I will say that if you want to risk it go for it but do so with tact please.

    For me I do not think that I could ever kill a person myself. I know that souns odd comming from someone that is pro death penitently and all but I have found that everytime I have been placed in that situation I became frozen for the most part. It take allot of courage to pull the trigger your self because when you take a life part of you goes with it. Even when you just pull the trigger in an effort to scare someone away there is a little part of you that goes away. Honestly I don't think that any one can really answer that question unless they have been placed in at least one situation where they were required to make the judgement call.

    I have never been in the armed forces so I have never been forced to kill. There have been times that I had the intent but once again not the courage to do anything about it other then weep in my own sorrows. So it doesn't look like I am a person that has homicidal tendencies I will say that the one time I thought about it was when someone very close to me was raped and she knew who her attacker was but she was to scared to come forward and he use to stalk her making her so scared that she could not even go outside for fear that it would happen again.

    When it comes to taking your own life I see nothing wrong with it. Every one is free to make their own choice about what they want to do with them self and so on. What is right for me may not be for another. If however my attempt at taking my life is a failed attempt then I would consider it along the lines of attempted manslaughter. I know that may sound odd but the reason for that is because if you really wanted to kill your self you would get it right the first time (at least most of the time there are always exceptions in my mind when it comes to this). The reason I say that is because most people that attempt to kill them self do so for attention. If they want attention that badly then they should have time to think about their actions and be placed in confinement so they can get the assistance that they need but still face a criminal offense to discourage another attempt later on. After a mental health examination has been completed I say let the doctors do their healing and then after they are released a short stay at the county lock up for a week or two for the first time.

    I will leave it there for now.
  • jaded_sapphire said:
    When it comes to taking your own life I see nothing wrong with it. Every one is free to make their own choice about what they want to do with them self and so on. What is right for me may not be for another. If however my attempt at taking my life is a failed attempt then I would consider it along the lines of attempted manslaughter. I know that may sound odd but the reason for that is because if you really wanted to kill your self you would get it right the first time (at least most of the time there are always exceptions in my mind when it comes to this). The reason I say that is because most people that attempt to kill them self do so for attention. If they want attention that badly then they should have time to think about their actions and be placed in confinement so they can get the assistance that they need but still face a criminal offense to discourage another attempt later on. After a mental health examination has been completed I say let the doctors do their healing and then after they are released a short stay at the county lock up for a week or two for the first time.

    I will leave it there for now.


    How the fuck can you say they're just doing it for attention. What about the ones who attempt it and are successful? I'm sure that was just a cry for attention as well. You are not in the position to say that. You are not them. You don't know what they are thinking.

    My cousin committed suicide two years ago. Just before his funeral his best friend killed himself because my cousin was what he believed his only friend.(and he made clear to mention this in his note). I ended up losing two friends in every connotation of the word.

    Yes, suicide is ultimately your choice but without council I find it an incredibly rude and selfish choice. What about other peoples feelings? Could you at least consider us before you go through with that. You can say that this thought is also selfish but I just want a chance to talk, even if it is the last time. No instead you rid yourself of your burden and gave a portion of it to me... that's just not nice and I will ultimately remember you as a mean person... but what do they care about my feelings, they're dead right?

    Assisted suicide I have no qualms with as it is usually done under council.

    Oh and if you want to force the topic of abortion then I'll say it should only be legal at the start of the 4th trimester and everyone thereafter.
  • Funny that I was going to mention an observation that many right wingers are for the death penalty but not abortion. In fishing terms that would be like throwing them back till they get bigger.
    i think its just as strange for the people that are pro-choice but against the death penalty but not as much because they can make the argument of when a fetus becomes a person.
    i wasnt even thinking of the usual heated debates when I got the idea to post that.
  • according the ten commandments it says thou should not kill, it doesn't say thou should not kill except when this or that , Killing is never ok whatever the reason.

    by the way i am not religious but i agree with the bible on this one, i have more of a Buddhist conventions.

    So if the government says it is ok then , Hitler, Stalin , PolPot etcetera where good guys?
  • Epke said:
    according the ten commandments it says thou should not kill, it doesn't say thou should not kill except when this or that , Killing is never ok whatever the reason.

    by the way i am not religious but i agree with the bible on this one, i have more of a Buddhist conventions.

    So if the government says it is ok then , Hitler, Stalin , PolPot etcetera where good guys?


    So if a man came at you with a knife and you had the claws of wolverine, the concussive force of cyclops, the strength of superman, and the uselessness of batman in this situation, you wouldn't kill him? Or lets say you try and disarm him and you accidently kill him? What would happen then?

    Or what if a man were slaughtering your family before your eyes? Wouldn't you any means necessary to try and protect them, especially if you could?

    And for the record there were lots of people who believed that and still killed lots of people. Just look at the crusades.
  • Mattson said:
    How the fuck can you say they're just doing it for attention. What about the ones who attempt it and are successful? I'm sure that was just a cry for attention as well. You are not in the position to say that. You are not them. You don't know what they are thinking.

    The ones that manage it the first time are not looking for attention. They are also the ones that most of the time you don't see it coming until it is to late. they are the ones that you look at and say yeah they are a little low but they are okay for the most part then after you say to your self that you should have seen the sighs and try to do something about it. Also I think you may have missed something that I said.
    ">
    jaded_sapphire;327410 said:
    if you really wanted to kill your self you would get it right the first time(at least most of the time there are always exceptions in my mind when it comes to this).

    Not every attempt is looking for attention but from what I have seen most of them are. I know that every time I tried to kill myself it was not for attention. There was always just something that got in the way of it. Once was because I did not know how to tie a noose right and one of my brothers decided to skip part of school that day so came home early and found me hanging there. Another time I did not take enough pills at one time I guess and who knows how long I was laying there on the floor before someone found me and called 911. You may ask how I know this... Well I have been in allot of group therapy sessions where people would flat out say that they just wanted someone to notice them. That they just wanted to know that people cared about them or things along those lines. I have also read and studied parts of the dsm IV as well as well as reading psychology books and articles to better understand not only my issues but to get a better understanding of how the brain works in general when it comes to emotions. I am by no means a professional but I was prepared to go to school to become a therapist until some of my children's needs came up and stopped it.

    On a side note: Mattson I am truly sorry for your loss. Please do not take offense to what I have said.
  • LOL my head is spinning... I don't even... LOL

    Alright. I'll try and tackle this.

    jaded_sapphire said:
    Not every attempt is looking for attention but from what I have seen most of them are.


    Not every attempt is looking for attention but most of them are? Okay, you just said most suicide attempts are looking for attention. Are ya still with me because this is where it gets complicated.

    Successful suicide attempts are still suicide attempts. Now if most suicide attempts are for attention it stands to reason that most suicides are for attention because as we've established successful attempts are still attempts.
  • Mattson said:
    So if a man came at you with a knife and you had the claws of wolverine, the concussive force of cyclops, the strength of superman, and the uselessness of batman in this situation, you wouldn't kill him? Or lets say you try and disarm him and you accidently kill him? What would happen then?

    Or what if a man were slaughtering your family before your eyes? Wouldn't you any means necessary to try and protect them, especially if you could?

    And for the record there were lots of people who believed that and still killed lots of people. Just look at the crusades.


    Like i said in the other thread, i would defend my family or my country, but in the end i would feel bad about it, because i would have become a murderer, i snuffed out someone's life, bad karma man!
  • Anyone trying to kill themself, or even attempting it "just for attention", has something wrong with them. Not in a bad way, the human body is just meant do everything it can to survive. Killing yourself is not a natural instinct. By saying people do it "just for attention" makes it sound like someone one day felt they were bored or felt like they didn't have enough people that noticed them.

    I think what you mean is some are a call for help. And I would say some, not most. You can probably look up some statistics but I don't personally feel like it right now and they would probably be terrible inaccurate. The only way to know would be to be the person attempting suicide also, you can't just speak for someone if you don't understand their situation.
  • Epke said:
    Like i said in the other thread, i would defend my family or my country, but in the end i would feel bad about it, because i would have become a murderer, i snuffed out someone's life, bad karma man!


    When does taking someones life ever feel anything other than bad?

    Trust me its absolutely normal to feel bad after taking a life.
  • There is an average of 10-20 Million attempts every year that are non fatal. There is an average of 1 million people that comment suicide every year.

    To you the may be the same. To me they are not. To me the words Attempted Suicide merely means to try. Suicide is succeeding in the effort. To me attempted and successful do not have any where the same meaning. They go hand in hand sometimes but if someone kills them self you would not say they attempted suicide and succeeded in it. If they attempted it on the other hand you might say that they attempted suicide and failed at it.

    You may have established that they are the same but we have not. the only reason I posted a link with attempted suicide is because I wanted to be able to show you why I feel they are not the same. I understand that you may feel offended by what I said but none was interned.

    Once again Mattson I am sorry for your loss losing people that you love and care for is never easy.
  • jaded_sapphire said:
    There is an average of 10-20 Million attempts every year that are non fatal. There is an average of 1 million people that comment suicide every year.

    To you the may be the same. To me they are not. To me the words Attempted Suicide merely means to try. Suicide is succeeding in the effort. To me attempted and successful do not have any where the same meaning. They go hand in hand sometimes but if someone kills them self you would not say they attempted suicide and succeeded in it. If they attempted it on the other hand you might say that they attempted suicide and failed at it.

    You may have established that they are the same but we have not. the only reason I posted a link with attempted suicide is because I wanted to be able to show you why I feel they are not the same. I understand that you may feel offended by what I said but none was interned.

    Once again Mattson I am sorry for your loss losing people that you love and care for is never easy.


    Oh I'm well in the realm of reason now.

    I just don't know how your post shows that successful attempts are not attempts.
  • gilligan said:
    Funny that I was going to mention an observation that many right wingers are for the death penalty but not abortion.

    I was wanting to ask you this before and then got side tracked. why do you feel that most right wingers feel that way? I know myself... I feel that a woman has the right to choose what she wants to do with her own body but at the same time I also feel that what ever choice she makes (to have the child and give it up for adoption, to keep the child or to end the life of the child) that is something that she is going to take up with what ever god she prays to and it is not my place to tell her what is right and what is wrong. That is for her and her alone to decide. I also feel that if a woman wants an abortion and the father doesn't want that and would like the child then the father should be able to petition to have an abortion stopped and that at birth the child is his. After all it takes 2 people to make a baby why should the choice just be one persons when it comes to the death of their child to be. If the father is unknown.. well that part I have not worked out in my head yet tbh.

    Epke said:
    according the ten commandments it says thou should not kill, it doesn't say thou should not kill except when this or that , Killing is never ok whatever the reason.

    It seems that more death and wars have been in the name of god than anything else. Yes the bible says that it is wrong but Christians back then were one of the first people to try to force what they believe down other peoples throats get upset enough about it to kill in his name.

    Never made any sense to me tbh

    @ Mattson I am not trying to disregard your feelings but I do not want to see this turn into a huge fight either on a difference of opinion on what a word means.
  • jaded_sapphire said:
    @ Mattson I am not trying to disregard your feelings but I do not want to see this turn into a huge fight either on a difference of opinion on what a word means.


    I'd call it more of a logical fallacy than a misinterpretation of a word.
  • Mattson said:
    I'd call it more of a logical fallacy than a misinterpretation of a word.


    This made me laugh inside
  • @jaded. I could never put any logic behind it. I have been wondering this for about 20 years and I still dont have a good theory. I can only guess its a religious thing

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