Death of a Criminal
  • What is a crime that someone could comment and have you say they deserve to die. Lets say that there is no question about it because you saw it with your own eyes. Lets pretend that the victim was either you or a close family member or an other loved one or even your child. What would that be.


    • If your answer is that no one ever deserves to die for any crime please tell me why you feel that way and help me to understand.


    For me the answer is easy. Child molesters that have victims that are under the age of 12 should die once they have been tried and found guilty. I say fuck the appeal process even more so now with DNA and all that.
  • Nobody deserves to die in this case, because it's wrong to grant authority to someone to take someone's life as a form of judgment as opposed to in times of survival, and the potential utility of having a criminal to learn and understand from is worth way more than having them in a grave somewhere.
  • GoodEnoughForMe said:
    Nobody deserves to die in this case, because it's wrong to grant authority to someone to take someone's life as a form of judgment as opposed to in times of survival, and the potential utility of having a criminal to learn and understand from is worth way more than having them in a grave somewhere.


    This this this. No one ever deserves to die for this reason precisely. It shames me that this isn't self evident.
  • I do not agree gefm. I feel that there are some things that are so horrible that the perpetrator deserves to die. Now I'm not talking about things like terrorism I am talking about things that you can find in a normal court room. At the very least I feel that a child molester should be made a eunuch and that would be them getting off easy imo.
  • Is the death penalty justice or revenge?
  • justice for the family and possibly the person that was harmed. revenge would be more like having someone do to them exactly what they did to another person to see how they like it.
  • Google defines revenge as: The action of inflicting hurt or harm on someone for a wrong suffered at their hands.

    If taking a life isn't considered 'harm' I haven't a clue what harm is.

    Alternatively, Google defines justice as: The quality of being fair and reasonable.

    All I ask you is when is murder ever fair or reasonable?
  • Mattson said:
    Alternatively, Google defines justice as: The quality of being fair and reasonable. All I ask you is when is murder ever fair or reasonable?

    That is my answer
  • Dude don't avoid the question. When is murder ever fair or reasonable?
  • It is fair and reasonable when the reason is just. There are certain people that should not be out free walking around where they can hurt others. So we what... feed them for the rest of their life, let them have a all their basic needs met and have a warm place to sleep at night all on the tax payers dime. Hell we don't do that for homeless people that have not commented a crime so why should we do it for the bottom feeders of society?
  • jaded_sapphire said:
    It is fair and reasonable when the reason is just. There are certain people that should not be out free walking around where they can hurt others. So we what... feed them for the rest of their life, let them have a all their basic needs met and have a warm place to sleep at night all on the tax payers dime. Hell we don't do that for homeless people that have not commented a crime so why should we do it for the bottom feeders of society?


    Murder is never the answer. To support the death penalty is to support murder. How are we ever going to stop murder if our answer to it is murder? I know it may seem naive to think that murder can be solved but I like to think that one day it can be.
  • There is some murder that is considered acceptable. For instance when there are times of war one side kills bad guy hoary we all cheer and say support our troops (well most people at least not everyone) but if you look on the other side of it with how the people we are in a war with look at it... You just murdered one of their troops. I am not saying that it is the same thing as what we are talking about here.. I am saying that to say that murder is never acceptable regardless of the situation then you would also have to be anti war and a complete phlegmatic and pacifist. Phlegmatic may not be the best word to use here but it is the closest word that I know of that can get my meaning across.
  • That's a bit different though. When you're at war you are under attack and you are defending yourself. It isn't murder but rather homicide. Murder needs an 'unlawful intent' and there's nothing unlawful when you are defending yourself.

    You don't have to be anti war to be anti murder has they are completely different animals.

    Murder is never just. The death penalty isn't just as it is an act of revenge. That's where I'm coming from.
  • taking someone's life is murder, plain and simple, even when defending your life, belittling it for some reason is semantics.
    if i would defend my country from invaders, i would do it, but i would still think of myself as a murderer.

    I can understand that someone is against the death penalty, but if someone rapes and kills your young daughter, all that philosophical talk doesn't mean shit.
  • Murder is a criminal act. Defending your life is not criminal, it's survival, it's protecting your freedom to live.

    Anyway, criminals of all sorts should be placed in jail. The death penalty is a waste of tax dollars, and not simply because it's in fact murder (intent on taking another life), but because it doesn't work. The Death Penalty does not stop criminals from committing crimes. They do it because they think they'll get away with it, are under emotional pressures, under other kinds of influence (alchohol, etc), or have some kind of mental disorder. The only way to properly punish criminals is to put them in jail.

    Also, note that I'm also under a second opinion in regards to killing criminals. I view death as an easy way out, they're no learning from your mistake, no real punishment involved, it's simply a matter of making other individuals feel good (vengeance) and making the state look like it's performing some kind of just act for society (it's not). At least with prison, they lose their freedoms, will most likely have the shit kicked out of them on a regular basis, probably be turned into someone else bitch (raped), and much more. Prisons aren't candyland, no one is going to like being there, and many of them would probably rather die than be in there.
  • Epke said:
    taking someone's life is murder, plain and simple, even when defending your life, belittling it for some reason is semantics.
    if i would defend my country from invaders, i would do it, but i would still think of myself as a murderer.

    I can understand that someone is against the death penalty, but if someone rapes and kills your young daughter, all that philosophical talk doesn't mean shit.


    I agree.

    Also, on a side note, when I was in college I took a course in psychology about serial killers. The prof asked everyone who was for and against the death penalty at the beginning of class. Most people raised their hands that were against the death penalty. By the end of the class, the prof again asked the same question, this time, no one raised their hands. While some murderers do and can learn from their mistakes, there are some that will never. They are psychopaths and will use people's good will against them to further their own intentions. As my prof said, these killers have willfully given up on the human race and see the rest of us as cattle for them to slaughter. In these cases, I see no problem in killing them. Allowing them to live because of some moral high ground seems pretty silly. And in this case, it would be self defense to get rid of them before they could kill anyone else.

    Actually, I think they should be handled like in the movie Sympathy for Lady Vengeance when the child molester and murder was captured. He was locked and tied to a chair in a room and then each of the parents of the children he killed go to take a wack at him until he was a bloody mess. :)
  • Mattson said:
    That's a bit different though. When you're at war you are under attack and you are defending yourself. It isn't murder but rather homicide. Murder needs an 'unlawful intent' and there's nothing unlawful when you are defending yourself.


    So if I attack someone trying to kill them and they try defend themselves trying to kill me in return... I'm suddenly free to kill them because I also have to defend myself?

    If a country invades another country they are going to get shot at, but they are the attackers in the first place. It's the people shooting the attackers that are defending. If you take the "defending yourself is fine" argument then the invaders are murderer's and the people they are invading are merely defending themselves.


    But towards the OP. I believe in death for just about any malicious intent tbh. I have no conceptions of life being precious and I also don't see death as a bad thing. If you don't fit into society to the point you have to be locked away, you may as well be put to death so society doesn't have to deal with those people any more. We're all going to die anyway, we all know this. Why is death such a bad thing that the people that have to be locked away for the rest of their lives can't simply be put to death so they aren't a burden to the rest of us? Why prolong the lives of the people that do harm to others?
  • The practicality of the death penlaty is horrendous. Its track record for safeguarding a society is terrible. It is not a 100% accurate act. And it leaves us with no way to try to understand the justification of a crime. The net positives of the death penalty are few and far between, if there are even any.
  • vowel said:
    I have no conceptions of life being precious and I also don't see death as a bad thing. If you don't fit into society to the point you have to be locked away, you may as well be put to death so society doesn't have to deal with those people any more. We're all going to die anyway, we all know this. Why is death such a bad thing that the people that have to be locked away for the rest of their lives can't simply be put to death so they aren't a burden to the rest of us? Why prolong the lives of the people that do harm to others?


    I only half way agree with you there V. got to admit that I am only a little surprised that you would say that though. I do not feel that common thugs should be put to death just the ones that are a physical danger to others in society.

    The way that I took what you said is that anyone that doesn't fit into the status qua should be put to death weather it is for drug use to being a thug to murder. Yes they are all aloof narcissistic jack asses.
  • vowel said:
    So if I attack someone trying to kill them and they try defend themselves trying to kill me in return... I'm suddenly free to kill them because I also have to defend myself?

    If a country invades another country they are going to get shot at, but they are the attackers in the first place. It's the people shooting the attackers that are defending. If you take the "defending yourself is fine" argument then the invaders are murderer's and the people they are invading are merely defending themselves.


    Why would you ever attack someone with the intent to kill them?

    If we respond with the death penalty then really we are no better than them. It shows that we are also willing to take lives. We should be leading by example and hope that they learn from our example.

    I don't want to get into the semantics of war; who invaded who... it is irrelevant. The leaders are the ones who choose to invade but when there is a battle with two sides shooting at each other you don't think about the reasons for war. Those soldiers aren't thinking about their leaders and why they are there. I'd be wiling to be their scared shitless and instinct took over.

    Here I'll quote a song: It was the heeeeat of the moment
  • Mattson said:
    Why would you ever attack someone with the intent to kill them?


    Ask a murderer that. People do it, maybe they upset them. Maybe the person cheated on their girlfriend and the girlfriend comes home and trys to kill the guy after catching him in the act... Things happen, people kill each other with the intent to do so. Having never been someone been in that situation I can't tell you why, but it happens.

    Mattson said:
    If we respond with the death penalty then really we are no better than them. It shows that we are also willing to take lives. We should be leading by example and hope that they learn from our example.


    I'm a firm believer in do one to others as you'd have them do one to you. So yeah, it may make you no better than them, but I'm not aiming to be better than them. I'm aiming to make them pay for their action. People don't learn from 'our example'. Justice systems have been around for many many years without people dying. Look at the midevil ages, people were put in a cell for theft. Our example of not stealing hasn't done a damn thing and never will. People will never learn from our example. You can't blindly 'hope' people will learn when theres no track record what-so-ever that people do. Just because I'm good it doesn't mean anyone else will be. It would be ideal if that were the case, but it's not.

    Mattson said:
    Those soldiers aren't thinking about their leaders and why they are there. I'd be wiling to be their scared shitless and instinct took over.


    Hardly in wars these days where soldiers are flying overhead shooting at people on the ground, or snipers from very far away being in little to no danger in their location. Not all the troops are on the ground under gun fire. Theres no self defence to the ones I mentioned (and theres more to mention), it's just people killing people and it's murder either way.


    As I said, life isn't precious. We are all going to die and I don't see why it's deemed as wrong to speed up the process for the people spending their life in a cell being a burden to others while they do so. Why should we cater to these people when we can just put them down? We put down overly aggressive animals, it's time to put down the overly aggressive humans.
  • vowel said:
    We put down overly aggressive animals, it's time to put down the overly aggressive humans.


    It could be said that they are the same thing
  • In very few cases would I agree with this, but I still agree with it. Child molesters, I do not.

    It would for me have to be someone who has killed multiple people innocent people for absolutely no reason, one that they know is not going to change his or her ways and is already going to be in jail for the rest of their life.
  • vowel said:
    Ask a murderer that. People do it, maybe they upset them. Maybe the person cheated on their girlfriend and the girlfriend comes home and trys to kill the guy after catching him in the act... Things happen, people kill each other with the intent to do so. Having never been someone been in that situation I can't tell you why, but it happens.


    I wasn't talking to a murderer, I was talking to you. Why is murder ever the answer? Why?



    vowel said:
    I'm a firm believer in do one to others as you'd have them do one to you. So yeah, it may make you no better than them, but I'm not aiming to be better than them. I'm aiming to make them pay for their action. People don't learn from 'our example'. Justice systems have been around for many many years without people dying. Look at the midevil ages, people were put in a cell for theft. Our example of not stealing hasn't done a damn thing and never will. People will never learn from our example. You can't blindly 'hope' people will learn when theres no track record what-so-ever that people do. Just because I'm good it doesn't mean anyone else will be. It would be ideal if that were the case, but it's not.


    You say you are a firm believer of do onto others as you'd have them do onto you. And I respect that, I try and practice it too. But everything you said after that directly contradicts that sentiment. I can demonstrate it by asking: 'When would you ever want to be killed?' If the answer is never then you should never be for murder. But you are; your logic baffles me right now. People still get put in jail for theft. In ancient times we believed in eye for an eye... we would cut of their hands if they stole. There are countries over in the middle east that still do that... should we start doing it again?



    vowel said:
    Hardly in wars these days where soldiers are flying overhead shooting at people on the ground, or snipers from very far away being in little to no danger in their location. Not all the troops are on the ground under gun fire. Theres no self defence to the ones I mentioned (and theres more to mention), it's just people killing people and it's murder either way.


    Again, murder needs an unlawful intent. The law you said you follow is 'do onto others as you'd have them do onto you.' To commit murder you would need to neglect that but you use it to justify murder and I find that perverse.


    vowel said:
    As I said, life isn't precious. We are all going to die and I don't see why it's deemed as wrong to speed up the process for the people spending their life in a cell being a burden to others while they do so. Why should we cater to these people when we can just put them down? We put down overly aggressive animals, it's time to put down the overly aggressive humans.


    Life isn't precious... that is a sin. Listen buddy, I know things may not be going well in your life but if we lose hope what the hell is the point of living? We're not 'catering' to them but rather trying to rehabilitate them. If rehabilitation is pointless then what is the point of prison? If I'm following your logic correctly we should just kill 'em all.

    Lets imagine if the world were 4 people. Me, you, a murderer, and a woman. The murderer kills me, you kill the murderer. The only two people left would be you and the woman. But the rest of future society would be fucked as they would all be bred from someone who commits murder.

    The most fucked up part is this has happened before, if you believe in the Bible that is. There was a time where there were only 4 people on this planet. Adam, Eve, Cain, and Abel. You know what happened there? Cain killed Abel and he had to repopulate Earth with his mom. But even then Cain wasn't killed. And thanks to him we got one of my favorite insults: mother fucker. But I'll digress.

    I'm just confused as hell right now.
  • MissScooter said:
    In very few cases would I agree with this, but I still agree with it. Child molesters, I do not.

    It would for me have to be someone who has killed multiple people innocent people for absolutely no reason, one that they know is not going to change his or her ways and is already going to be in jail for the rest of their life.


    Just want to make sure that I understand this right real fast. lets say that you have a little sister that is 4-5 years old. Someone comes in, violates her, rips her apart by not only molestation but rape as well. You feel that person is not on the same level that a murder that has killed several people should be. Lets say that this same person has done the same thing before... Would it not be fair to make sure that man could never again hurt another child?
  • jaded_sapphire said:
    Just want to make sure that I understand this right real fast. lets say that you have a little sister that is 4-5 years old. Someone comes in, violates her, rips her apart by not only molestation but rape as well. You feel that person is not on the same level that a murder that has killed several people should be. Lets say that this same person has done the same thing before... Would it not be fair to make sure that man could never again hurt another child?


    That is a fucked up situation and if it happened to you then you'd obviously have tons of emotions running through you. When you are blinded by passion the wrong thing can not only seem right but it can appear as the only option.

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